bengoldacre - secondary blog

ben goldacre witters on and on and on about things that are too long to post on twitter and not clever enough to post on his main blog at www.badscience.net

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    no movement on the BBC's bizarre links policy

    here;s the background:

    http://bengoldacre.posterous.com/trying-to-get-the-bbc-to-link-to-journal-arti

    below is their email back to me this afternoon, and my rambling hurried response.

    it's odd that they don't get it, and i don't understand why they're so against linking to journal articles, when their arguments so obviously dont hold water.

    Dear Dr Goldacre,
    Many thanks for your message, and interest in the site.
    The issue of linking to specific research papers, rather than the journals in which they appear is something with which we have long wrestled.

    Linking to the journal gives the reader the chance to look at the source of the story, understand something of the wider context and get an idea of whether the research is peer reviewed. It also gives a chance to read associated information in editorials, etc, which often may be of interest. It is also a way for us to credit the journal.

    We accept that linking to the specific research paper itself is often a desirable thing to do, and it is certainly something we will try to do more of in future. However, we don't believe that it is something we can do on every occasion - for instance many papers are available on the web via subscription only, while others give only an Abstract summary. In these instances, the vast majority of our readers would not be able to read the full papers, without paying for access, even if we provided the relevant link.

    In addition, we do have finite resources, and our view is that our top priority should always be to provide authoratitive, accurate and attractive reportage. We have to balance that against the desirability of providing a link on a story which is likely to be of use only to a small number of our readers.

    We have sent out new guidelines to reporting staff summarising our position, and stressing that linking to individual papers is something they should consider as an option on each story.

    My contact details are not for publication elsewhere.
    Kind regards,

    Richard Warry
    Assistant editor,  Specialist journalism
    BBC News website

    Hi Richard,

    thanks for getting back to me. I think that BBC journalists are alone in believing that linking to a journal homepage is actively preferable to linking directly to the academic paper or press release. I'm keen to try and understand why, since you disagree with every single reader, librarian, blogger and academic I've spoken to, or had comments from, so I hope you're amenable to changing your mind!

    Every problem you describe with linking to a journal article (paywall for full text etc) is the same for linking to the journal itself.

    Furthermore, abstracts are often very sufficient to get a deeper understanding of the topic, decide whether the academic article has been fairly represented in the news article, and decide whether it is  worth seeking out in a library for those who are interested: anyone in the UK can get access to these academic articles for free, if they wish, by going to the right library. I'd be happy to right a guide for readers if you thought that might be useful.

    Alongside this there are the many serious problems raised by linking to university homepages (eg glasgow.ac.uk) and journal homepages, instead of specific research. They leave it completely ambiguous as to what piece of research was being described, often there is insufficient information in the news article to identify it, often time has passed and it is unclear what issue of the journal someone should be looking in (so I don't really understand your suggestion that linking to journals is helpful in finding surrounding editorials, that would be understandable if you linked to specific issues, but not to journals).

    The end result is that the links add nothing. I mean it when I say the ongoing active commitment to these practises is baffling to those outside the BBC. It makes absolute sense to link to the press release and the abstract of the academic journal, or to link to nothing. Linking to the frontpage of the journal adds nothing, it gives no useful information (since the name of the journal is in the text of the news article anyway) and it serves only to give the BBC the illusion of having provided a useful link, when in reality they've done no such thing.

    Is there anyone I can come in and talk to about this? There is no doubt that this is something where there is a huge groundswell of popular concern, I've never had that many comments on my secondary posterous blog, and all so overwhelmingly in favour of the BBC improving its links policy.

    Linking to the specific journal article is useful to everybody, and linking to the journal homepage is useful to nobody.

    Ben


    dr ben goldacre
    ben@goldacre.net
    http://www.badscience.net/

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    • 8 March 2010
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    about 2 years ago Nick Loman responded:
    Linking to the DOI handle of the journal article via the DOI gateway dx.doi.org is clearly the way forward for the BBC and there can be no sane argument for not doing it.
    about 2 years ago michael power responded:
    michael power
    it is much much easier for a functionary in a bureaucracy to say "no", than to to say "yes".

    The people in the BBC who could say "yes" have what they think ar bigger issues on their minds. They don't get that the biggest issue is their attitude to the little issues.

    about 2 years ago Tom Geraghty responded:
    Tom Geraghty
    If the BBC agree that linking to the original journal article is "desirable", then I sincerely don't understand why, even with "finite resources", they can't link to them in the vast majority of cases.

    Could a cynic maybe speculate that sometimes the author of the BBC article hasn't read the actual journal article, and therefore doesn't know where to link to, only that it was written by Professor X at University Y?

    about 2 years ago Sam Cook responded:
    I agree with you Ben, the BBC needs to provide useful links to with what they say.

    I think one of the problems can be found here "our top priority should always be to provide authoratitive, accurate and attractive reportage". The BBC seem unable to acknowledge that this statement may not always be true or that people may want to verify it. It would seem that the people you are arguing with are of the mindset "why would people want any more than we can tell them?" This is a worrying mindset for people to be in but also a trap that is difficult (I imagine) for a group such as the BBC to avoid.

    about 2 years ago Henry responded:
    Good stuff Ben. I find their reasoning somewhat odd. We link to the original papers wherever possible - its one of the things i'm most proud of about our feed - e.g.:

    http://info.cancerresearchuk.org/news/archive/cancernews/2010-03-05-Experimen...

    The argument that 'some people won't be able to access it' just doesn't, in my* opinion, hold any water... the people who CAN access it are an important minority, and should be catered for... News orgs need to understand that their role as an archive/resource is becoming every bit as important as their role in actually breaking new stuff...

    Ben, have you read this (+ comments) on Ed's blog?

    http://scienceblogs.com/notrocketscience/2010/02/why_dont_the_links_in_your_p...

    Be interested in your thoughts...

    H

    *as in 'mine' not Cancer Research UK's ;)

    about 2 years ago ceebs responded:
    I don't see how the finite resources argument even slightly comes into play. If the reporter who wrote the article has written about an academic article, then they must have the link there, unless they are arguing that the reporter shouldn't do their job. Surely creating a link to the journals homepage is actually making more work, as you are having to find an entirely seperate link in creating the page.
    about 2 years ago gimpy responded:
    Although it is perhaps unfair to single out Mr Warry, he is after all only expressing the views of his organisation, I have corresponded with him on occasion in the past regarding this very issue. Early in 2008, with respect to the practice of not citing papers, he stated that "With regards to a specific citation, this is not the policy of the website, although it is clearly something which must be reviewed."

    They say things move slowly in great bureaucracies but this is really beginning to take the piss.

    about 2 years ago Anthony responded:
    "If the reporter who wrote the article has written about an academic article, then they must have the link there"

    You are assuming they aren't relying only on the press release.

    about 2 years ago David Carey responded:
    The arguement being offered from the BBC really doesn't work. I mean, hands up who would rather spend hours wading about looking at a variety of editorials to 'get a feel' for the background then reading an informative and relevant abstract.

    Bloody grrr.

    about 2 years ago Nick Loman responded:
    It does sound like the problem is more that the paper isn't available (charitable version) or the journalist hasn't bothered to read it (cynical version) and thus a link is not available at the time.

    I agree that press releases should coincide with the article being released and journalists should correlate the findings with the press release as a bullshit filter.

    But sounds like this isn't going to happen any time soon :(

    about 2 years ago michael power responded:
    michael power
    What really winds me up about Richard Warry's response is not all the holes in his argument, but the expectation that it will convince. Why does the BBC not treat users, especially users of the stature of Ben, as if they have some intelligence, and take their suggestions seriously.
    about 2 years ago aiusepsi (Twitter) responded:
    Avatar_large_normal
    Even if the journalist is relying on just a press release, they should be linking to the press release.

    I also don't understand why he's so dismissive of the abstract; if the abstract doesn't present the most pertinent information in the most succinct manner, it's basically worthless as a piece of academic research because nobody is ever going to read it. The abstract alone should be of very great interest to anybody, no matter if they can click through to read the full article or not.

    about 2 years ago Ed responded:
    Nick, the charitable version is indeed a big problem (see here: http://scienceblogs.com/notrocketscience/2010/02/why_dont_the_links_in_your_p.... I know Henry already linked to that post but it *is* worth noting that there are more systemic reasons for the no-link problem than just laziness.

    That being said, there is absolutely nothing to stop them from putting up a DOI link and having a little disclaimer pop-up to explain if the link doesn't work. At the very least, that puts the onus of responsibility on the journals to ensure that their papers come out when their embargoes lift.

    about 2 years ago Nick Loman responded:
    With the BBC's huge web team I think they could easily rig up a bit of code that makes the DOI link go live when the handle starts working and just display some text like "article waiting for DOI registration" until that happens if they wanted to avoid broken links.

    I've noticed that even the journal RSS feeds themselves link to broken DOI handles on their TOC feeds which does need sorting out.

    about 2 years ago sushiguru responded:
    I note an interesting use of the word 'reportage' in his email; I draw your attention to the OED's 3rd definition of the word:

    "That which is reported (esp. of a person); rumour, gossip."

    Perhaps that's why they won't link to definite articles...

    G.

    about 2 years ago Mick responded:
    Why can't they just put both links? One to the journal homepage and one to the specific paper being discussed? Even if the latter link changes subsequently, an interested party will at least have a starting point to track it down.
    about 2 years ago Robert (Jamie) Munro responded:
    I found a couple of articles based on papers in journals by searching the BBC for "journal nature" and found the articles on pubmed by searching for an author name mentioned in the BBC article. In both cases it was the first (i.e. most recently published) hit. It literally took less than a minute once I knew what I was doing. I added the links to Google Sidewiki, so other Google Toolbar users will be able to see them.
    about 2 years ago anne_f_ (Twitter) responded:
    Image_normal
    I find reading BBC reports of academic research very frustrating due to the lack of links to the original papers. I'm not an academic, but consider it important to read the original work itself, or the author's/journal's abstract when either is available to the "BBC's bog-standard reader". Journalists may interpret research in ways that I wouldn't, or may have summarised research that I would like to know more about.
    about 2 years ago John Hilton responded:
    I've experienced concern from publishers or organisations who are worried about people using direct links to their content because (shock!) visitors may 'accidentally' bypass 'important' registration or paywall systems that they'd encounter via the home page. That's just piss-poor website design, of course, and mostly a relic of older systems or smaller organisations. Just wondering if BBC policy arose from some organisations demanding they don't use direct links?? No excuse, mind you.
    about 2 years ago Nick Loman responded:
    You know, whilst we're on the subject, why do the BBC insist on breaking with convention and put the external links in a separate region on the right of the page? This is the bit of the page that our brains filter out because we think there are adverts there. It seems to be a convention of newspaper websites not to have hyperlinked text in the body article (probably a legacy of moving from print to online) but it makes no sense for the BBC to do it this way. I don't buy the argument that users need to be "kept safe" by not letting them accidentally access an external site.
    about 2 years ago Anne Marie Cunningham responded:
    Anne Marie Cunningham
    Yesterday, I got very annoyed at the Times, Telegraph and Mail because they were carrying a story on wine and weight gain in women which was linked to research published in the Archives of Internal Medicine. But the study is not to be found on their website. Now the BBC is also carrying the story http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/8555461.stm and still no sign of the study. Surely, this is not on!
    about 2 years ago Anne Marie Cunningham responded:
    Anne Marie Cunningham
    So the explanation for the women and wine story is that the embargo was broken http://www.google.com/sidewiki/entry/110323881792442231224/id/DeLiR8bfAaRwdxG...>Here is @pharmaguy's post with the release
    http://www.forums.pharma-mkting.com/showthread.php?p=25712#post25712

    Disappointing, but not surprising.

    about 2 years ago Anne Marie Cunningham responded:
    Anne Marie Cunningham
    Oh, embargo was broken- possibly by the telegraph. In these circumstances linking to the article would be particularly helpful.

    http://embargowatch.wordpress.com/2010/03/08/archives-of-internal-medicine-em...

    about 2 years ago Jo Brodie responded:
    Jo Brodie
    I have vague memories of when websites didn't like people deep linking (ie bypassing the main page, or 'normal' linking for everyone other than the BBC; I think the bit about HTTP at Wikipedia is quite interesting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_linking) - I think it was something to do with losing count of visitors if they didn't follow a prescribed pathway (some other commercial reasons are highlighted in that Wikipedia page).

    In almost all cases this has always seemed daft to me because it forces *every* reader to do some work to find what they need, whereas one author can do a tiny bit of extra work to post the relevant URL.

    It seems that if we can't change the BBC's mind then perhaps we ought to use the Sidewiki facility - it's possible to get a link for a Sidewiki comment that can be shared among users who've not downloaded the toolbar so it will be satisfactorily public.

    I think the idea of linking to an editorial page has merit, but adding a second link is not the same amount of work as adding the first link. A link to the PubMed abstract would do fine for me personally.

    about 2 years ago Paul Sampson responded:
    Paul Sampson
    The Beeb are currently soliciting opinions (at http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbctrust/consultations/departments/bbc/bbc-strategy-revi... and you don't even have to register or login. Unlike at the bnf.org.

    One of the questions is - "Which BBC output do you think could be higher quality?" and I instantly thought of this here links issue. So I've just answered with the following:

    "Your links to external websites - especially the ones pertaining to peer-reviewed articles or to academic institutions - are almost universally perceived as useless.

    They link to the topmost level you could possibly choose from that institution or journal without actually staying within your own domain (which you give every sign of preferring to do if you possibly could, but you know that would just be silly).

    So, yes - higher quality links please! Point to the actual referent, not its container's container's container. You've done the work to get to the specifics - please don't make us do it all over again. It's unnecessarily tedious and just seems mean."

    about 2 years ago Sally Findlay responded:
    I think linking to pubmed is ideal. Those that want to take it on from there can, and you can browse what else the authors have done so easily. Journal homepages can be a nightmare to navigate without titles, dates etc.
    about 2 years ago Nile responded:
    The BBC are just another bunch of journalists: to them, a story's just a story and there's no such thing as a fact, unless there's a risk of being sued. They have no understanding of what a scientific journal is or does, except for a vague suspicion that a narrow subset of their readers (who are too small to matter, and have no access to the real media) might use them to whine ineffectually.
    about 2 years ago Chris Keene responded:
    Of course academic publishers are not like other publishers. They do not pay for or commission the expensive research. They simply take it for free, demand copyright and handle some administration (formatting, drafting). They then demand high prices for it.

    So the comment "It is also a way for us to credit the journal." is somewhat giving credit to the wrong place. The academics, Universities and Funders created the research. Most Research Councils and the Wellcome Trust now mandate that a copy of the research article is placed in a publicly available web repository, such as pubmed or one based at a University, I'd argue that if the publisher version is behind a pay-wall then the BBC should link to the publicly available version.

    about 2 years ago (Facebook) responded:
    The BBC should deep-link whenever possible, obviously. Sometimes there are difficulties to do with the embargo system, so that full papers may be available to hacks at temporary URLs on sites accessible to the media, but are not on the journal website - even when the embargo has passed. Or the hacks may have received a PDF direct from an academic or press office. Or (and this is not good practice) they are writing the story from a Eurekalert press release and a phone call or two. So there are times when chasing the correct URL becomes ridiculous.
    This lack of a usable deep link is more common than you might think.
    about 2 years ago Helen Cooper responded:
    Helen Cooper
    Hmmm, I think the BBC are misjudging their audience.

    There are the people who read the headline and the blurb, they do not care about the whole story, they just want a precis.

    Then there are the category who read the whole news piece, they are interested in the subject but usually not interested enough to spend time investigating the original article - that's the journalists' job after all.

    Finally there's the reader who having read the news piece decides that they would like to know more, maybe for professional reasons or just to clarify a few points. These are the people who will be clicking on the links.

    So let's imagine this final group and think about what our (now smaller and more specific target audience wants).
    Do they have an interest in the subject - Yes, the news article wasn't enough, ergo the links should contain more information.
    Will they have a background in the subject - Probably, or a related subject. Most people won't spend time investigating in depth, a news article which doesn't relate to something they understand or have previous experience of. Therefore the links should be aimed at a non-ignorant reader.
    Will they have access to the paper - If they are the sort of person who clicks links related to news articles, chances are, that given the title and authors of a journal, they will be able to find a copy to read.

    So I repeat what I said last time, they should use proper references. If a link is available then that's a bonus, but whatever happens I'd like to see the name of the article, the authors and when/where it was published. IMO this is enough information for the interested reader to find the paper. As has already been said, if the journalist is doing their job then they'll have the information to hand anyway ;o)

    about 2 years ago Ed Pentz responded:
    Hi

    I’m from CrossRef which manages the DOIs for scholarly journals. We created a blog plug-in that allows nicely formatted citations with persistent DOIs link to be added to blog posts about journal articles. There is also a quick CrossRef metadata search to find citations.

    You can see the blog plug-in in action at Research Blogging – http://www.researchblogging.org/

    We’d be happy to adapt this so BBC journalists can use it or meet with the BBC with you, Ben.

    about 2 years ago (Facebook) responded:
    What I'm not sure about in relation to the linking issue is why the BBC don't just do both. Link to the wider website and label it as such and then also link the article/section/page in question. Posting a link to Nature on its own without context isn't particularly user friendly given that there are hundreds upon thousands of articles on there to be searched through to find the right one. It would be like posting a link to a blog to comment on a post but not actually bother linking directly to that post. Years even hours down the line that's irrelevant.
    about 2 years ago Emily responded:
    As a frequent BBC reader, I'll just throw in my voice to say YES PLEASE link to specific journal articles (and to specific researchers or specific research on University websites). I strongly second everything Ben has said on this point.
    about 2 years ago Kevin responded:
    I am stealing your undisclosure nonagreement.
    about 2 years ago Steve Herrmann responded:
    Hi, I’m the Editor of the BBC News site and can see there’s plenty of food for thought here and some good, specific and useful points to take on board. I’m aiming to set out a few thoughts on linking to science papers, and our approach to linking in general, in the next few days on the BBC News Editors’ blog http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/ I hope you’ll take a look, continue the discussion and let me know what you think there too. Steve Herrmann
    about 2 years ago Billy Badger responded:
    Billy Badger
    Simple surely? If the links add value - allowing the visitor to look deeper - I am surprised by the focus on academic and research papers - I would have thought that they were freely available to those interested
    about 2 years ago Anne Marie Cunningham responded:
    Anne Marie Cunningham
    everyone seen this? http://onlinejournalismblog.com/2010/03/19/the-bbc-and-linking-part-3-the-bbc...
    about 2 years ago Jo Brodie responded:
    Jo Brodie
    The BBC's latest article about dinosaurs and volcanoes links straight to the parent article in PNAS http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/8580444.stm hat tip @gimpyblog
    almost 2 years ago Din Freebies responded:
    Din Freebies
    If the reporter who wrote the article has written about an academic article, then they must have the link there"

    You are assuming they aren't relying only on the press release.

    almost 2 years ago Shell gas gift card responded:
    What I'm not sure about in relation to the linking issue is why the BBC don't just do both. Link to the wider website and label it as such and then also link the article/section/page in question. Posting a link to Nature on its own without context isn't particularly user friendly given that there are hundreds upon thousands of articles on there to be searched through to find the right one. It would be like posting a link to a blog to comment on a post but not actually bother linking directly to that post. Years even hours down the line that's irrelevant.
    7 months ago Prateek Buch responded:
    Prateek Buch
    update - have blogged on a recent occurrence of same problem:

    http://www.libdemvoice.org/bbc-science-hyperlinking-25609.html

    7 months ago malinamartis (Twitter) responded:
    Default_profile_3_normal
    well post! your article has certainly given me something to think about.
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    2 months ago VictoriayaPolya (Twitter) responded:
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    Furthermore, abstracts are often very sufficient to get a deeper understanding of the topic, decide cialis whether the academic article has been fairly represented in the news article, and decide whether it is worth seeking out in a library for those who are interested: anyone in the UK can get access to these academic articles for free, if they wish, by going to the right library. I'd be happy to right a guide for readers if you thought that might be useful.
    about 1 month ago darrymor (Twitter) responded:
    Default_profile_6_normal
    I'm keen to try and understand Buy Phentermine why, since you disagree with every single buy kamagra uk reader, librarian, blogger and academic I've Levitra UK spoken to, or had comments from, so I hope you're amenable to changing your mind!
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